嗯 楼上所言极是 看来英雄所见略同
只是吊链贼和9环非自主施法现在好像都不多。。
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此外补充下2楼的法师思路
只是pfs下其实计划到13级就差不多了 所以施法者还是先纯着吧 等级上去了再说吧。。。
法师的路子 战士1法师5奥骑10地狱4 bab=16 cl=18 只是魔宠等级只有6
或者法师6地狱4魔射4奥骑6 bab=16 cl=18 （或者10魔射）这样可以玩玩射箭
而且好像有个专长可以让进阶职业也拿到天赋奖励hp？战士的魔宠变体 （Eldritch GuardianSource Familiar Folio ）
奥法骑士 要求 擅长军武 三环 不掉bab 第一级掉cl
地狱持节 要求三环 不掉法术环数 4掉1bab
[PoP]《进阶之路》地狱骑士持节士
地狱骑士持节士 Hellknight Signifer
介绍暂缺。
生命骰：d8
先决条件
要成为一名地狱骑士持节士，角色必须满足以下条件。
阵营：任意守序。
专长：奥术着甲训练或战斗祭司UM。
技能：威吓2级，知识(位面)5级，辨识法术5级。
法术：可以施展3环法术。
特殊：角色必须杀死一只比他具有更高生命骰的魔鬼。必须有地狱骑士见证这一胜利。
本职技能
地狱骑士持节士的本职技能(及其关键属性)为：交涉(魅力)，威吓(魅力)，语言学(智力)，知识(全部)(智力)，专业(感知)，察言观色(感知)和辨识法术(智力)。
每级技能点数：2+智力调整值
引用
表：地狱骑士持节士
等级 BAB 强韧 反射 意志 特殊能力
每日法术
1级 +0 +0 +0 +1 守序灵光，口授传承，骑士团，持节士面甲 +1施法者等级
2级 +1 +1 +1 +1 奥术着甲大师 +1施法者等级
3级 +2 +1 +1 +2 持节士护甲训练1 +1施法者等级
4级 +3 +1 +1 +2 审视 +1施法者等级
5级 +3 +2 +2 +3 奥术着甲大师(直觉动作) +1施法者等级
6级 +4 +2 +2 +3 辨识谎言 +1施法者等级
7级 +5 +2 +2 +4 审视 +1施法者等级
8级 +6 +3 +3 +4 持节士护甲训练2 +1施法者等级
9级 +6 +3 +3 +5 炼狱坚韧 +1施法者等级
10级 +7 +3 +3 +5 魔鬼预言者 +1施法者等级
职业能力
以下是地狱骑士持节士进阶职业的职业能力。
武器与护甲擅长(Weapon and Armor Proficiency)：持节士获得重甲和一种他的骑士团偏好武器的擅长。
守序灵光(Aura of Law，特异能力)：地狱骑士持节士的守序灵光强度(参见侦测守序法术)等同于其总角色等级。
口授传承(Catechesis，特异能力)：若地狱骑士持节士拥有战斗祭司(Warrior Priest)UM专长，他的地狱骑士持节士等级与其他神术施法者等级叠加，以计算那些职业的领域力量，裁决领域，先知启示。这不会提供新的能力。此外，拥有战斗祭司专长的持节士获得引导阵营(混乱)作为奖励专长，并在计算对混乱异界生物造成的治疗或伤害时，以及在计算它们减半伤害的豁免DC时，将其地狱骑士持节士等级视作牧师等级。
骑士团(Order)：地狱骑士持节士选择加入一个地狱骑士的骑士团。最常见的地狱骑士骑士团(及其偏好武器)为：锁链骑士团(轻型链枷)，界门骑士团(匕首)，圣爪骑士团(钉头锤)，尖钉骑士团(长枪或戟)，火刑骑士团(大砍刀)，拷问骑士团(长剑或鞭)，天谴骑士团(重型硬头槌或鞭)。更多关于地狱骑士团的内容请参见《内海世界指南》266页。
持节士面甲(Signifer Mask，超自然能力)：在开始地狱骑士之道时，持节士获得一面面甲，通常没有露出眼睛的地方，或其它类人特征。该面甲不会阻碍持节者的视野，且当穿戴该面具时，他在察言观色检定和对抗基于视觉效果的法术与能力的豁免上获得+2表现加值。
一名通过奥术联结职业能力获得了联结物品的地狱骑士持节士可以通过花费500金币和8小时来完成一个特殊的仪式。这一仪式将持节士的面具转换为他的新联结物品，占据头部位置。在这种情况下，地狱骑士持节士等级与提供联结物品的职业等级叠加，以决定可以在联结物品上添加何种额外魔法能力。
奥术着甲大师(Arcane Armor Expertise)：2级时，若地狱骑士持节士拥有奥术着甲训练专长，他获得奥术着甲大师作为奖励专长。5级时，使用该专长的动作需求由迅捷动作变为直觉动作。
*译注：此处疑为有误，实际应为核心规则书中的奥术着甲大师(Arcane Armor Mastery)专长。
持节士护甲训练(Signifer Armor Training)：3级时，当地狱骑士持节士着甲时，他的护甲检定减值降低1点(至少为0)，奥术失败率降低5%。8级时，他的护甲检定减值再降低1点，奥术失败率再降低5%。此外，8级时，若地狱骑士持节士的速度因着中甲或重甲而降低，他独特的训练令速度少降低5尺。
审视(Assiduous Gaze)：在4级和7级时，地狱骑士持节士获得一项审视能力，从下表中选择。地狱骑士持节士每日可以使用每个他拥有的审视能力的轮数等同于1/2其职业等级。这些轮数不必连续。地狱骑士持节士可以以一个迅捷动作启动一项审视能力以检视30尺内的一名单个生物，物体或五尺方格。地狱骑士持节士必须穿戴持节士面甲才能使用这些能力，他在使用这些能力时的施法者等级等同于其角色等级。
引用
辨咒审视(Elucidation，超自然能力)：辨识作用于目标的每个法术，包括法术的效果及施法者等级。
度德审视(Morality，类法术能力)：确认目标是否是混乱，邪恶，善良或守序阵营，并确认其灵光强度，如同使用侦测混乱，侦测邪恶，侦测善良和侦测守序研究了三轮一般。
探法审视(Scrutiny，超自然能力)：辨识目标是有具有类法术能力或施法能力，施法能力是奥术还是神术，及其当前可用的最强大的法术或类法术能力的强度(见侦测魔法)。
知真审视(Veracity，类法术能力)：观察目标，如同使用真知术。地狱骑士持节士必须达到7级才能选择此能力。
透物审视(Vigilance，超自然能力)：看穿至多5尺厚的石头，木头或类似阻碍物，如同它们并不存在一般。这一能力无法穿透任何种类的金属。
辨识谎言(Discern Lies，类法术能力)：6级时，地狱骑士持节士可以以类法术能力使用辨识谎言法术，每日3+魅力调整值轮。这些轮数不必连续。他的施法者等级等同于其总角色等级。
炼狱坚韧(Infernal Resilience，特异能力)：9级时，地狱骑士持节士获得DR 5/混乱，且免疫毒素。
魔鬼预言者(Diabolic Harbinger，超自然能力)：10级时，只要地狱骑士持节士戴着他的持节者面甲，他便可获得100尺范围的心灵感应能力，且可以在魔法和普通黑暗中完美视物。当穿戴持节士面甲时，他免疫目盲和目眩效果，并在与守序生物互动时，在所有基于魅力的检定上获得+2加值。若该生物同时为异界生物，这一加值提升至+4。
2、输出型队伍是不是比泛用型队伍更好用？或者说只要做个3菜刀1万金油之类的简单修改也能达到很好的效果？
你的標題不是綜合通用普適隊伍嗎 ==
這個頂多頂多只適用於PFS吧，在AP或自設團裡一點都行不通。
我對於你說的綜合通用普適隊伍的定義，類似於一些老外的tier list裡的評價方法，不止局陷於戰鬥，而是在任何情境下隊伍能應對的能力。
看到有些人會對老外的一些tier list嗤之以鼻，廢話，因為那表本來就不是以戰鬥力去排的。
劇透裡有老外給的情境範例和每個tier的職業在這些情境中能應對的程度。(3.5版本)
Situation 1: A Black Dragon has been plaguing an area, and he lives in a trap filled cave. Deal with him.
Situation 2: You have been tasked by a nearby country with making contact with the leader of the underground slave resistance of an evil tyranical city state, and get him to trust you.
Situation 3: A huge army of Orcs is approaching the city, and should be here in a week or so. Help the city prepare for war.
Okay, so, here we go.
Tier 6: A Commoner. Situation 1: If he's REALLY optimized, he could be a threat to the dragon, but a single attack from the dragon could take him out too. He can't really offer help getting to said dragon. He could fill up the entire cave with chickens, but that's probably not a good idea. Really, he's dead weight unless his build was perfectly optimized for this situation (see my Commoner charger build for an example). Situation 2: Well, without any stealth abilities or diplomacy, he's not too handy here, again unless he's been exactly optimized for this precise thing (such as through Martial Study to get Diplomacy). Really, again his class isn't going to help much here. Situation 3: Again, no help from his class, though the chicken thing might be amusing if you're creative.
Tier 5: A Fighter. Situation 1: If he's optimized for this sort of thing (a tripper might have trouble, though a charger would be handy if he could get off a clear shot, and an archer would likely work) he can be a threat during the main fight, but he's probably just about useless for sneaking down through the cave and avoiding any traps the dragon has set out without alerting said dragon. Most likely the party Rogue would want to hide him in a bag of holding or something. Once in the fight if he's optimized he'll be solid, but if not (if he's a traditional SAB build or a dual weilding monkey grip type) he's going to be a liability in the combat (though not as bad as the Commoner). Situation 2: As the commoner before, his class really won't help here. His class just doesn't provide any useful tools for the job. It's possible (but very unlikely) that he's optimized in a way that helps in this situation, just as with the Commoner. Situation 3: Again, his class doesn't help much, but at least he could be pretty useful during the main battle as a front line trooper of some sort. Hack up the enemy and rack up a body count.
Tier 4: The Rogue. Situation 1: Well he can certainly help get the party to the dragon, even if he's not totally optimized for it. His stealth and detection abilities will come in handy here, and if he puts the less stealthy people in portable holes and the like he's good to go. During the combat he's likely not that helpful (it's hard to sneak attack a dragon) but if he had a lot of prep time he might have been able to snag a scroll or wand of Shivering Touch, in which case he could be extremely helpful... he just has to be really prepared and on the ball, and the resources have to be available in advance. He's quite squishy though, and that dragon is a serious threat. Situation 2: With his stealth and diplomacy, he's all over this. Maybe not 100% perfect, but still pretty darn solid. An individual build might not have all the necessary skills, but most should be able to make do. Situation 3: Perhaps he can use Gather Information and such to gain strategic advantages before the battle... that would be handy. There's a few he's pretty likely to be able to pull off. He might even be able to use Diplomacy to buff the army a bit and at least get them into a good morale situation pre battle. Or, if he's a different set up, he could perhaps go out and assassinate a few of the orc commanders before the fight, which could be handy. And then during the fight he could do the same. It's not incredible, but it's something.
Tier 3: The Beguiler. Situation 1: Again, getting through the cave is easy, perhaps easier with spell support. And again, if he's really prepared in advance, Shivering Touch via UMD is a possibility. But he's also got spells that could be quite useful here depending on the situation, and if he's optimized heavily, this is going to be pretty easy... Shadowcraft Mage, perhaps? Or Earth Dreamer? Either way, he's got a lot of available options, though like the Rogue he's somewhat squishy (and that Dragon won't fall for many illusions with his Blindsense) so he still needs that party support. Situation 2: Again, with his skills he's all over this one, plus the added ability to cast spells like charm makes this one much easier, allowing him to make contacts in the city quickly while he figures out where this guy is. Situation 3: Like the Rogue, he can get strategic advantages and be all over the Diplomacy. He's not quite as good at assassinating people if he takes that route (though sneaking up invisible and then using a coup de gras with a scythe is pretty darn effective), but using illusions during the fight will create some serious chaos in his favor. A single illusion of a wall of fire can really disrupt enemy formations, for example.
Tier 2: The Sorcerer. Situation 1: It really depends on the Sorcerer's spell load out. If he's got Greater Floating Disk, Spectral Hand, and Shivering Touch, this one's going to be easy as pie, since he can just float down (and carry his party in the process) to avoid many traps, then nail the dragon in one shot from a distance. If he doesn't he'd need scrolls with the same issues that the UMD Rogue and Beguiler would need. If he's got Explosive Runes he could create a bomb that would take out the Dragon in one shot. If he's got Polymorph he could turn the party melee into a Hydra for extra damage. If he's got Alter Self he could turn himself into a Skulk to get down there sneakily. Certainly, it's possible that the Sorcerer could own this scenario... if he has the right spells known. That's always the hard part for a Sorcerer. Situation 2: Again, depends on the spell. Does he have divinations that will help him know who's part of the resistance and who's actually an evil spy for the Tyranical Govenerment? Does he have charm? Alter Self would help a ton here too for disguise purposes if he has it. Once again, the options exist that could totally make this easy, but he might not have those options. Runestaffs would help a bit, but not that much. Scrolls would help too, but that requires access to them and good long term preparation. Situation 3: Again, does he have Wall of Iron or Wall of Stone to make fortifications? Does he have Wall of Fire to disrupt the battlefield? How about Mind Rape and Love's Pain to kill off the enemy commanders without any ability to stop him? Does he have Blinding Glory on his spell list, or Shapechange, or Gate? Well, maybe. He's got the power, but if his spells known don't apply here he can't do much. So, maybe he dominates this one, maybe not.
Tier 1: The Wizard. Situation 1: Memorize Greater Floating Disk, Shivering Touch, and Spectral Hand. Maybe Alter Self too for stealth reasons. Kill dragon. Memorize Animate Dead too, because Dragons make great minions (seriously, there's special rules for using that spell on dragons). Sweet, you have a new horsie! Or, you know, maybe you Mind Rape/Love's Pain and kill the dragon before he even knows you exist, then float down and check it out. Or maybe you create a horde of the dead and send them in, triggering the traps with their bodies. Or do the haunt shift trick and waltz in with a hardness of around 80 and giggle. Perhaps you cast Genesis to create a flowing time plane and then sit and think about what to do for a year while only a day passes on the outside... and cast Explosive Runes every day during that year. I'm sure you can come up with something. It's really your call. Situation 2: Check your spell list. Alter Self and Disguise Self can make you look like whoever you need to look like. Locate Creature has obvious utility. Heck, Contact Other Plane could be a total cheating method of finding the guy you're trying to find. Clairvoyance is also handy. It's all there. Situation 3: Oh no, enemy army! Well, if you've optimized for it, there's always the locate city bomb (just be careful not to blow up the friendly guys too). But if not, Love's Pain could assassinate the leaders. Wall of Iron/Stone could create fortifications, or be combined with Fabricate to armour up some of the troops. Or you could just cast Blinding Glory and now the entire enemy army is blind with no save for caster level hours. Maybe you could Planar Bind an appropriate outsider to help train the troops before the battle. Push comes to shove, Gate in a Solar, who can cast Miracle (which actually does have a "I win the battle" option)... or just Shapechange into one, if you prefer.
Noven不要來回我
情境一:凥爆就好了
情境二:凥爆就好了
情境三:凥爆就好了
這也是為什麼九環準備施法者在那些tier list中都是t1的原因，因為理論上只要有時間準備，幾乎總是能在法術列表中找到對於該情境有幫助的法術。
理論的原因是DM可能不會開到相關的擴展書本，或是玩家本身的閱讀量不夠，但是在評價職業本身時，應該扣掉這些職業以外的因素。