作者 主题: 關於囤法鐵手套的疑問  (阅读 7381 次)

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Re: 關於囤法鐵手套的疑問
« 回帖 #20 于: 2014-11-16, 周日 08:46:27 »
就像变形和徒手攻击,很多起哄的所谓”HR“,当然偶暂时米看见有人真反人类设这些HR(因为这些HR本身也让DM自己受苦……),虽然平时整天说就素了
骑冲不是冲锋只能标动攻击的团喵也跑过啊,而且不止一个dm这么判,其实接受的话也就那么回事儿了(思考
变形类全部使用变形子学派的描述的团,虽然喵不喜欢所以没跑过这种,但是见还是见过不少的啊(歪头
当然这两种情况也不大一样就是了……
前者可以说是两种hr里选择了这一种,后者则大概是觉得规则写明的地方不够好/不适合团进行的房规
ps:其实要找的话,骑冲更接近冲锋、骑冲是整轮动作的规则证据在犄角旮旯里还真的找得出来……不过毫无意义嘛 :em003

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Re: 關於囤法鐵手套的疑問
« 回帖 #21 于: 2014-11-16, 周日 14:33:08 »
就像变形和徒手攻击,很多起哄的所谓”HR“,当然偶暂时米看见有人真反人类设这些HR(因为这些HR本身也让DM自己受苦……),虽然平时整天说就素了
骑冲不是冲锋只能标动攻击的团喵也跑过啊,而且不止一个dm这么判,其实接受的话也就那么回事儿了(思考
变形类全部使用变形子学派的描述的团,虽然喵不喜欢所以没跑过这种,但是见还是见过不少的啊(歪头
当然这两种情况也不大一样就是了……
前者可以说是两种hr里选择了这一种,后者则大概是觉得规则写明的地方不够好/不适合团进行的房规
ps:其实要找的话,骑冲更接近冲锋、骑冲是整轮动作的规则证据在犄角旮旯里还真的找得出来……不过毫无意义嘛 :em003
骑冲那个,偶也见过,但通常在只素低级团啊,所以在问题出现前坑团了……
变形那个,偶围观几次,要么DM自己不遵守要么DM干脆全面禁止变形了

【潜水】卖萌打滚求摸头(1756262813)  16:04:31
论为啥大家都讨厌狮冲但是都在想办法搞
【吐槽】毁灭之王|亡灵(85200497)  16:04:53
反正我不讨厌……
【潜水】卖萌打滚求摸头(1756262813)  16:05:20
咦咦
我看好多人都讨厌狮冲来着0.0
【活跃】超DM|妮娅<[email protected]>  16:06:54
我也不讨厌啊
虽然我更喜欢一刀流,但是一刀流好难做
« 上次编辑: 2014-11-16, 周日 16:09:09 由 星踪幻影 »
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Re: 關於囤法鐵手套的疑問
« 回帖 #22 于: 2014-11-16, 周日 21:01:10 »
引用
喵觉得比如说快速骑乘战斗的效果啦,小体型生物骑乘中体型生物的触及啦,骑乘冲刺骑手究竟要使用什么动作这样每一张骑乘卡都会遇到的问题
我觉得每个都很明确怎么办。。
快速骑乘那个描述怎么看都是让你捅死人才能继续跑的
触及有什么问题
人宠分开计算,宠冲锋人根本就不需要交动作就受了冲锋调整值影响,人动的时候一下攻击有骑乘倍伤
我怎么觉得RC都写的很明白
这个人已经懒得什么都不想留下了

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Re: 關於囤法鐵手套的疑問
« 回帖 #23 于: 2014-11-16, 周日 21:08:16 »
引用
喵觉得比如说快速骑乘战斗的效果啦,小体型生物骑乘中体型生物的触及啦,骑乘冲刺骑手究竟要使用什么动作这样每一张骑乘卡都会遇到的问题
我觉得每个都很明确怎么办。。
快速骑乘那个描述怎么看都是让你捅死人才能继续跑的
触及有什么问题
人宠分开计算,宠冲锋人根本就不需要交动作就受了冲锋调整值影响,人动的时候一下攻击有骑乘倍伤
我怎么觉得RC都写的很明白
不,有人喜欢“按一切不利于PC且严格字面意思来判”于素出现偶和海灵儿讨论那些例子了233
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Re: 關於囤法鐵手套的疑問
« 回帖 #24 于: 2014-11-16, 周日 21:19:51 »
讨厌的根源难道不是DPS太高导致自己的怪站不住没法玩吗
不讨厌就只能针对或者上万动海灵解(喂)
这个人已经懒得什么都不想留下了

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Re: 關於囤法鐵手套的疑問
« 回帖 #25 于: 2014-11-16, 周日 22:25:31 »
引用
喵觉得比如说快速骑乘战斗的效果啦,小体型生物骑乘中体型生物的触及啦,骑乘冲刺骑手究竟要使用什么动作这样每一张骑乘卡都会遇到的问题
我觉得每个都很明确怎么办。。
快速骑乘那个描述怎么看都是让你捅死人才能继续跑的
触及有什么问题
人宠分开计算,宠冲锋人根本就不需要交动作就受了冲锋调整值影响,人动的时候一下攻击有骑乘倍伤
我怎么觉得RC都写的很明白
不,有人喜欢“按一切不利于PC且严格字面意思来判”于素出现偶和海灵儿讨论那些例子了233
好吧……既然如此喵就给乃们展示一下为什么律师如喵却说骑冲规则根本就没法按字面意思判
猪老爷乃说RC都写得很明白对吧?

那首先看看触及的问题;小体型生物拿骑枪骑乘5尺触及的中体型坐骑冲锋一个中体型敌人,这是个很常见的情况没错吧?
但是如果坐骑按冲锋规则,“After moving, you can make a single melee attack. (rc p27)”,那么当这个中体型坐骑达成冲刺的时候,骑手也必须“If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge.(rc p89)”才能享受骑冲的好处;那么试问正常情况下一个持骑枪的小体型生物如何攻击5尺的敌人?如果说卫生纸的设计意图就是让小体型骑乘中体型只有在乱搞的情况下才能进行骑乘冲锋那显然是非常荒谬的,那么这里就只能是规则上有问题了

然后,快速骑乘攻击的问题,乃说“怎么看都是让你捅死人才能继续跑的”
引用
When using the Ride-By attack feat, you must conduct your
charge so that you move in a straight line toward the closest
square from which it is possible to attack your chosen foe, so
long as it is a square that allows you to attack and then continue
on in the straight line of the charge. You still must attack your
foe the moment you reach that square. (Although the feat
description doesn’t say so, you and your mount also must move
at least 5 feet after you make your attack to get the benefit of
the feat.) This is a special rule for charging when using the
Ride-By Attack feat.
faq p95
看到了么?喵觉得能令faq的规则师和玩家做出完全不同理解的规则,本身就已经不能称作好规则了——但是其实这还不够糟:
引用
Ride-By Attack: This feat works something like the Spring Attack feat. You can charge a foe, attack, and then keep moving. The total distance you move cannot exceed twice your mount's speed. You and your mount's movements don't provoke attacks of opportunity from the foe you attack. Since you must charge in a straight line and you cannot move through another creature's space when charging, exactly how you use this feat is problematical. According to the D&D FAQ, you charge directly toward your target as normal. After your attack, you can change direction so you can move away in a straight line.
RotG,all about mounts,part5
非要“严格按照字面意思”来抠rotg描述的话,这™完全又变成另一个意思了……

至于最后一个动作问题,如果只有RC一个版本的话,喵觉得猪老爷乃的理解也没什么错
但是问题是……
引用
Full-Round Actions
劇透 -  无关部分:
As with standard actions, you can sometimes perform a full-round action while your mount moves. Other times, your mount's movement interferes with the full-round action, especially when you have to be someplace in particular to perform the action. If a full-round action is shown on Table 8-2 but not included here, you can perform it from a moving mount. You complete the action after the mount completes its movement for the turn. Some full-round actions require some additional notes:

Full Melee Attack: A moving mount usually keeps you from using the full attack action for melee attacks because you spend part of your turn just moving along with your mount. You can make a full melee attack while mounted, however, if your mount moves no more than 5 feet during the turn. The rules don't say so, but common sense dictates that 5 feet of movement in this case constitutes a 5-foot step. If your mount uses the minimum movement rule to move 5 feet though (see page 149 in the Player's Handbook), the best you can manage on the same round is a single melee attack.

Full Ranged Attack: You can make a full ranged attack from your moving mount. If your mount makes a single move, you make all your ranged attacks either before or after the movement, and the rules assume your mount is stationary when you shoot. If your mount makes a double move, you can still make a full ranged attack, but you're shooting while the mount is moving and you take a -4 penalty on your attack roll. If your mount runs, you take a -8 penalty on ranged attacks. In either case, you make all your attack rolls when your mount has completed half its movement for the turn.
Charge: Performing a mounted charge works just like performing a charge on foot. You use your mount's speed rating. Remember that no creature can charge through an obstacle, another creature, or terrain that hampers movement. Due to its larger size, your mount might be unable to charge in a location where you could if on foot (see page 148 in the Player's Handbook).

If you're armed with a lance, you deal double damage when you perform a mounted charge.
劇透 -  无关部分:
Deliver Coup de Grace: You can deliver a coup de grace from a moving mount only when your mount moves 5 feet or less during the current turn.

Escape From a Net: If you happen to find yourself caught in a net and your mount is not, you can attempt to escape from it while your mount moves. Resolve the attempt after the mount completes its movement.

Use a Skill That Takes 1 Round: Using a skill that requires you to touch or handle something while mounted (such as Disable Device or Open Lock) is subject to the same limitations that apply to mounted melee attacks. Whatever you touch or handle must be within reach when you use the skill. If you can carry whatever you're touching or handling as part of your skill along with you as your mount moves, your mount's movement doesn't affect the skill use (though the DM might chose to impose a check penalty or DC increase).

A skill that works at a distance (such as Search or Survival) usually isn't affected by your mount's movement (though the DM might choose to impose a check penalty or DC increase. If your mount makes a single move, you can make your skill check before or after the mount moves). If your mount runs or makes a double move, you use your skill check when your mount has completed half its movement for the turn.

Use a Touch Spell on Up to Six Friends: You can deliver a touch spell while your mount moves. You can use your mount's speed to move from friend to friend. If you cast the spell with a casting time of one action during the same round you deliver it, the spell isn't completed until your mount completes half its movement for the turn.

Withdraw: You can withdraw while mounted. Use your mount's speed rating. The first square you and your mount leave is not considered threatened and neither you nor your mount provoke attacks of opportunity when you leave that square.
RotG,all about mounts,part4
按rotg的说法,骑乘冲锋就是个骑手的整轮动作!
有人曾经对喵说过,这里是“后出的规则取代先出的规则”,如果只有RotG和RC两个版本的话,这种说法确实可以自圆其说,不过……
引用
CHARGING
If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associ-
ated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the
charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge.
RC p89
引用
If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated
with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you
receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horse-
back, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge, page 154).
PHB p157
看,与其说RC是后出取代先出,其实RC根本就一点没改PHB,完全抄过来的啊 :em032

所以再度总结一下喵始终未变的核心观点:骑冲规则之所以如此令人困扰的根本原因,就是骑冲规则本身的混乱模糊和前后矛盾;
对于高伤的心理问题,当然在某些团里或许是重要原因甚至是主导因素,但是首先喵认为“克服心理问题”并不能说明其他问题都无关紧要——问题容易解决和问题不重要是完全不一样的;其次,如果真的按“有利于pc”——按影姐姐乃的看法,按等同于骑手冲锋的方向判,难道就一点问题没有么?喵确定在和其他规则互动时必然还会有新的问题出现(随便举个例子,骑手骑乘的时候能不能进行“follow all the normal rules for using the Jump skill and for making a charge”的跳劈?如果可以的话用谁的跳跃级数?即便可以,用骑手还是坐骑的级数也都是没有明文支持的hr),而喵个人认为把所有情况都一刀切不适于骑冲规则这种本身就莫名其妙的东西;最后……其实说这个可能有些跑题,不过喵不觉得坐骑冲锋骑手标动攻击就等同于按对PC不利来判……一个老梗,暮刃咒剑骑冬狼不就是反过来利用这种判法的build么?

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Re: 關於囤法鐵手套的疑問
« 回帖 #26 于: 2014-11-16, 周日 23:07:26 »
海灵儿啊,偶上面素逗号不素句号,偶说的素:“骑冲不素冲锋又只能标动无特效攻击还坐骑素套件且对骑手米加成的”
« 上次编辑: 2014-11-16, 周日 23:10:53 由 星踪幻影 »
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Re: 關於囤法鐵手套的疑問
« 回帖 #27 于: 2014-11-16, 周日 23:26:14 »
海灵儿啊,偶上面素逗号不素句号,偶说的素:“骑冲不素冲锋又只能标动无特效攻击还坐骑素套件且对骑手米加成的”
骑冲要是判标动打一下的话,喵见过的基本都判成和普通的整轮动作冲锋有关的能力不生效了……本质上和不算冲锋坐骑套件似乎差不多?一个就连带着另两个的样子……
判标动打一下且其他能力生效的……喵没见过,不过喵不确定有没有,概率上八成是有的?
当然喵觉得怎么判其实都无所谓……确实定下来不乱改怎么都能跑就是了 :em003

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Re: 關於囤法鐵手套的疑問
« 回帖 #28 于: 2014-11-16, 周日 23:33:18 »
4、3R骑冲规则是坨SH*T,说实话个人觉得这么用会带来一大堆的后续问题,不管是DM还是PC还是尽量避免比较好。
从13楼开始完全印证了这八个字的感觉(喂) :em032
突出一个惨
劇透 -   :
22:43<黑暗中的柏北霸> 一只巨大的,虚幻的巨龙头部
22:43<黑暗中的柏北霸> 正堵在出口处
22:45<黑暗中的柏北霸> 威严,强大,它的须发皆张,双目似火似电,散发出一股浩瀚的气息
22:45<黑暗中的柏北霸> (过意志
22:46<西撒|赤红> (免疫
22:46<小夜> (免疫
22:46<妮娅> (免疫
22:47<格姆> (免疫
22:48<Oicebot>  伊萨克进行满足一下BBB吧检定: 1d20+9+4+3=9+9+4+3=25
22:49<伊萨克> (DC多少来着?
22:50<黑暗中的柏北霸> (25……
22:55<黑暗中的柏北霸> 那巨龙见你们跑来
22:56<黑暗中的柏北霸> 头向后微微一缩
22:56<黑暗中的柏北霸> 大口中电光闪烁
22:56<黑暗中的柏北霸> “轰!”
22:59<黑暗中的柏北霸> (过反射
22:57<小夜> (哦,我免疫……
22:58<妮娅> (干,要触发了……
22:59妮娅 啪的一下一道力场球挡在了自己面前(
22:59<Oicebot>  杜丽特进行反射渣检定: 1d20+7=20+7=27
23:01<Oicebot>  格姆进行ref检定: 1d20+7=20+7=27
23:01<Oicebot>  伊萨克进行我蜘蛛的!检定: 1d20+6=20+6=26
23:01<黑暗中的柏北霸> (绝对假的吧!
23:01<黑暗中的柏北霸> (你们绝对灌铅了吧!

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Re: 關於囤法鐵手套的疑問
« 回帖 #29 于: 2014-11-16, 周日 23:51:21 »
要是拿出来说事儿的话骑冲确实不大适合……连能说服大部分人的标准都没有