作者 主题: 关于变体叠加问题的讨论  (阅读 36344 次)

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关于变体叠加问题的讨论
« 于: 2017-11-09, 周四 22:45:34 »
引述: Archetype Stacking and Altering: What exactly counts as altering a class feature for the purpose of stacking archetypes?
In general, if a class feature grants multiple subfeatures, it’s OK to take two archetypes that only change two separate subfeatures. This includes two bard archetypes that alter or replace different bardic performances (even though bardic performance is technically a single class feature) or two fighter archetypes that replace the weapon training gained at different levels (sometimes referred to as “weapon training I, II, III, or IV”) even though those all fall under the class feature weapon training. However, if something alters the way the parent class feature works, such as a mime archetype that makes all bardic performances completely silent, with only visual components instead of auditory, you can’t take that archetype with an archetype that alters or replaces any of the sub-features. This even applies for something as small as adding 1 extra round of bardic performance each day, adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select, or adding an additional class skill to the class. As always, individual GMs should feel free to houserule to allow small overlaps on a case by case basis, but the underlying rule exists due to the unpredictability of combining these changes.

感谢白药指正,发现了这样一个问题,在这里简单写一下。

基于2015年6月更新的APG的这条FAQ
可以发现变体的叠加规则似乎比直觉上以为的更为严格,任何调整了总体特性(parent class feature)的变体不能叠加其他调整或取代子特性(sub-feature)的变体。
比如武器训练是一种总体特性,而武器训练I、II等等是子特性等等,两个变体可以取代不同等级的武器训练且仍然兼容,只要它们并未对武器训练的总体特性作出调整。

而什么是调整了总体特性呢?FAQ举了这样一些例子:
1、诗人的mime变体改变了吟游表演的成分,则其调整了吟游表演的总体特性,所以不能叠任何其他调整或取代吟游表演子特性的变体。
2、如果某个变体增加了每天1轮吟游表演,那么也视作调整了吟游表演的总体特性。
3、如果某个变体为奖励专长的列表增加了可选专长,视作调整了奖励专长的总体特性。
4、如果某个变体增加了本职技能,视作调整了本职技能的总体特性。

如果考虑3的情况,就会有下面一些常见问题:
对于先知:双重诅咒(增加了可选启示,调整了总体特性)+任何取代某个等级启示的变体(取代了若干子特性) 不能叠
对于魔战:巫战士(增加了可选奥能,调整了总体特性)+任何取代某个等级奥能的变体(取代了若干子特性) 不能叠

当然这是个APG的FAQ,暂时没找到PFS在这方面的特殊解释,不知道是不是也是这样处理?
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Re: 关于变体叠加问题的讨论
« 回帖 #1 于: 2017-11-26, 周日 18:42:04 »
引述: Archetype Stacking and Altering: What exactly counts as altering a class feature for the purpose of stacking archetypes?
In general, if a class feature grants multiple subfeatures, it’s OK to take two archetypes that only change two separate subfeatures. This includes two bard archetypes that alter or replace different bardic performances (even though bardic performance is technically a single class feature) or two fighter archetypes that replace the weapon training gained at different levels (sometimes referred to as “weapon training I, II, III, or IV”) even though those all fall under the class feature weapon training. However, if something alters the way the parent class feature works, such as a mime archetype that makes all bardic performances completely silent, with only visual components instead of auditory, you can’t take that archetype with an archetype that alters or replaces any of the sub-features. This even applies for something as small as adding 1 extra round of bardic performance each day, adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select, or adding an additional class skill to the class. As always, individual GMs should feel free to houserule to allow small overlaps on a case by case basis, but the underlying rule exists due to the unpredictability of combining these changes.

感谢白药指正,发现了这样一个问题,在这里简单写一下。

基于2015年6月更新的APG的这条FAQ
可以发现变体的叠加规则似乎比直觉上以为的更为严格,任何调整了总体特性(parent class feature)的变体不能叠加其他调整或取代子特性(sub-feature)的变体。
比如武器训练是一种总体特性,而武器训练I、II等等是子特性等等,两个变体可以取代不同等级的武器训练且仍然兼容,只要它们并未对武器训练的总体特性作出调整。

而什么是调整了总体特性呢?FAQ举了这样一些例子:
1、诗人的mime变体改变了吟游表演的成分,则其调整了吟游表演的总体特性,所以不能叠任何其他调整或取代吟游表演子特性的变体。
2、如果某个变体增加了每天1轮吟游表演,那么也视作调整了吟游表演的总体特性。
3、如果某个变体为奖励专长的列表增加了可选专长,视作调整了奖励专长的总体特性。
4、如果某个变体增加了本职技能,视作调整了本职技能的总体特性。

如果考虑3的情况,就会有下面一些常见问题:
对于先知:双重诅咒(增加了可选启示,调整了总体特性)+任何取代某个等级启示的变体(取代了若干子特性) 不能叠
对于魔战:巫战士(增加了可选奥能,调整了总体特性)+任何取代某个等级奥能的变体(取代了若干子特性) 不能叠

当然这是个APG的FAQ,暂时没找到PFS在这方面的特殊解释,不知道是不是也是这样处理?

先说结论,我认为不是这样处理。

我们先说一下解读规则的一个前提:如果不是与“现实”、“常理”和“直觉”相违背的,我们原则上采用“字证(RAW)”而非“心证(RAI)”。

你这里的最大疑问一定是:
如果某个变体(我在此处以战士变体:战术家举例)为奖励专长的列表增加了可选专长,视作调整了奖励专长的总体特性。
魔战变体:法刃增加了可选奥能,是否视作调整了奥能的总体特性?

(为什么不说你原先说的“巫战士”?因为巫战士的奥能调整,分为两个部分:1、增加奥能选项。2、可以选取巫术替代奥能。这要复杂的多。法刃就很单纯,只包含“1、增加奥能选项”。本帖要论证的只是,“增加奥能选项”、“增加盗贼天赋选项”并不会改变原本特性,也不与任何改变原本特性的能力冲突

我从RAW的角度告诉你:并不视作。

得出这个结论的原因是,战士的奖励专长总体特性被调整,并不是因为FAQ,而是因为战士变体增加专长选项的描述,RAW意义上已经推翻了战士本体的Wording。而奥能选项增多,RAW意义上并没有影响魔战士本体的奥能能力Wording。

战士战术家的奖励专长说明是这样的:
A tactician may choose Skill Focus or any teamwork feat, in addition to Combat Feats, as bonus feats.

这句话,让战士本体说明中的红字部分变成了“假话”:
At 1st level, and at every even level thereafter, a fighter gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement (meaning that the fighter gains a feat at every level). These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as Combat Feats, sometimes also called “fighter bonus feats.

所以它在RAW意义上改变了战士的奖励专长能力。武僧、战祭等人的奖励专长同理。调整本职技能列表、调整诗人表演轮数、蛮子狂暴轮数同理。

而法刃的说明是这样的:
A spellblade gains access to the following magus arcana. He cannot select any arcana more than once.

它的原本的魔战士奥能能力,没有任何相悖之处:
As he gains levels, a magus learns arcane secrets tailored to his specific way of blending martial puissance and magical skill. Starting at 3rd level, a magus gains one magus arcana. He gains an additional magus arcana for every three levels of magus attained after 3rd level. Unless specifically noted in a magus arcana’s description, a magus cannot select a particular magus arcana more than once. Magus arcana that affect spells can only be used to modify spells from the magus spell list unless otherwise noted.

故而得出如上结论。

版主可将本帖和本帖所回复的帖子转至别处,因为这都不是“回报人物卡错漏”。
« 上次编辑: 2017-11-26, 周日 18:44:49 由 弑君者伊恩 »
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Re: 关于变体叠加问题的讨论
« 回帖 #2 于: 2017-11-26, 周日 19:27:35 »
先把先知那边律死比较爽快(
本体先知启示是
引用
Revelation: At 1st level, 3rd level, and every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, and so on), an oracle uncovers a new secret about her mystery that grants her powers and abilities. The oracle must select a revelation from the list of revelations available to her mystery. If a revelation is chosen at a later level, the oracle gains all of the abilities and bonuses granted by that revelation based on her current level. Unless otherwise noted, activating the power of a revelation is a standard action.
原本只能选秘示域list内的启示,所以只要能选秘史域外启示的变体肯定都算改动(所以双重诅咒跑不掉)

所以类似问题变成了,如果职业能力里没写从某一list中选取的话(如魔战奥能,盗贼天赋,女巫巫术)而且提供了独特选项的变体能不能叠加。

当然再请教一下,像巫战提供那个诅咒打击的奥能,是“选不选这个奥能都算该变体改动过法打职业能力”,“选了这个奥能才算变体改动过法打职业能力”,还是“选了该奥能也不算变体改动过法打职业能力”?

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Re: 关于变体叠加问题的讨论
« 回帖 #3 于: 2017-11-26, 周日 21:14:13 »
我觉得应该从FAQ本身去解释FAQ,不是去挑变体的句子来解释比较恰当。

引述: Archetype Stacking and Altering: What exactly counts as altering a class feature for the purpose of stacking archetypes?
In general, if a class feature grants multiple subfeatures, it’s OK to take two archetypes that only change two separate subfeatures. This includes two bard archetypes that alter or replace different bardic performances (even though bardic performance is technically a single class feature) or two fighter archetypes that replace the weapon training gained at different levels (sometimes referred to as “weapon training I, II, III, or IV”) even though those all fall under the class feature weapon training. However, if something alters the way the parent class feature works, such as a mime archetype that makes all bardic performances completely silent, with only visual components instead of auditory, you can’t take that archetype with an archetype that alters or replaces any of the sub-features. This even applies for something as small as adding 1 extra round of bardic performance each day, adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select, or adding an additional class skill to the class. As always, individual GMs should feel free to houserule to allow small overlaps on a case by case basis, but the underlying rule exists due to the unpredictability of combining these changes.

FAQ只有说,如果调整或取代了主职业能力(parent class feature),既使调整程度小到像以下这三个例子,也视作调整。所以最后一段也说了GM可以用房规来处理这方面的问题。
引用
2、如果某个变体增加了每天1轮吟游表演,那么也视作调整了吟游表演的总体特性。
3、如果某个变体为奖励专长的列表增加了可选专长,视作调整了奖励专长的总体特性。
4、如果某个变体增加了本职技能,视作调整了本职技能的总体特性。

从这三例子,我认为就代表了新增选项即代表了调整主职业能力的意思。

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2scwu&page=2?Do-archetypes-that-both-alter-class-skills-stack#90,这网址也在讨论这个FAQ,设计师Mark Seifter也有频繁的参与讨论。讨论串中,像新增可选的魔战奥能,盗贼天赋等等,参与讨论的群众及Mark都没有认为并不属于这FAQ生效的范围。也有很多人认为这FAQ太严格,所以Mark也重复的强调说,正如FAQ所说,建议GM对个别职业的重叠作房归的调整。
引述: Pathfinder Design Team Official Rules Response
Johnny_Devo wrote:
I guess my confusion is stemming from what is defined as a "subfeature". Is it more along the lines of, say, swashbuckler and gunslinger deeds, magus arcana, or something else that you gain different abilities as part of the same feature?

Yes, like deeds, which is technically a single class feature. Or bardic performances, as mentioned in the FAQ itself.
魔战士奥能也的确属于有主职业能力和子能力(subfeature)的职业能力。



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Re: 关于变体叠加问题的讨论
« 回帖 #4 于: 2017-11-27, 周一 03:54:13 »
引用
我从RAW的角度告诉你:并不视作。

得出这个结论的原因是,战士的奖励专长总体特性被调整,并不是因为FAQ,而是因为战士变体增加专长选项的描述,RAW意义上已经推翻了战士本体的Wording。而奥能选项增多,RAW意义上并没有影响魔战士本体的奥能能力Wording。

战士战术家的奖励专长说明是这样的:
A tactician may choose Skill Focus or any teamwork feat, in addition to Combat Feats, as bonus feats.

这句话,让战士本体说明中的红字部分变成了“假话”:
At 1st level, and at every even level thereafter, a fighter gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement (meaning that the fighter gains a feat at every level). These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as Combat Feats, sometimes also called “fighter bonus feats.

所以它在RAW意义上改变了战士的奖励专长能力。武僧、战祭等人的奖励专长同理。调整本职技能列表、调整诗人表演轮数、蛮子狂暴轮数同理。

这一段其实我也不认同,FAQ没有说到类似的道理(我觉得FAQ根本没有设计的那么复杂),增加可选专长导致奖励专长被视作调整的确是因为这个FAQ所导致,设计师Mark以前也是那么认为,他在这FAQ出来之前玩了僧兵(Sohei)变体,这变体在武僧奖励专长中新增了骑乘战斗,然后他又选了另一个调整了奖励专长的变体,因为他当时认为新增专长不算调整了能力。

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2scwu&page=3?Do-archetypes-that-both-alter-class-skills-stack#130,出自相同的讨论串
引述: 马克自己也中枪
Sometimes, FAQs alter the rules, often as readied actions for errata. This is certainly not one of those times; it was very clear that they were in a grey area in the past, leaning towards disallowing by the strictest RAW interpretation of what counts as altering. And I say this as someone who actually has a PFS character affected that I made four years ago long before working here (my -2 had sohei + an archetype that alters bonus feats, but sohei only adds Mounted Combat, so I thought at the time that maybe it didn't count as altering bonus feats), and I experienced table variation on whether I had them both before now, which I was always happy to acquiesce. Believe me, I made sure to bring up all possible viewpoints before the PDT made the decision. Any PFS rebuilds (including my character) are for players who knew they were in a grey area and might not stay with both archetypes. I know, since I'm one of those players.
雅各之塔(Jacob's Tower) 个人翻译的Pathfinder RPG非官方长篇系列冒险模组,一系列13个模组共17万字,每个模组皆可独立抽出使用。(已出版,商品页面) 全彩地图素材包
[PF]魔战士变体大全
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Re: 关于变体叠加问题的讨论
« 回帖 #5 于: 2017-11-27, 周一 04:05:38 »
FAQ只有说,如果调整或取代了主职业能力(parent class feature),既使调整程度小到像以下这三个例子,也视作调整。所以最后一段也说了GM可以用房规来处理这方面的问题。
引用
2、如果某个变体增加了每天1轮吟游表演,那么也视作调整了吟游表演的总体特性。
3、如果某个变体为奖励专长的列表增加了可选专长,视作调整了奖励专长的总体特性。
4、如果某个变体增加了本职技能,视作调整了本职技能的总体特性。

从这三例子,我认为就代表了新增选项即代表了调整主职业能力的意思。

这三个FAQ说的例子有一个共性,那就是他们都是字面上调整了原职业能力,所以才叫“调整”。

没有字面调整,FAQ也没有列举的,并不能凭你的主观臆断认为也“调整”了职业能力。
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Re: 关于变体叠加问题的讨论
« 回帖 #7 于: 2017-11-30, 周四 04:45:16 »
只字未提不改变职业特性本身并增加选项的情况,哪里说清了?

不要随意曲解“改变职业特性”的意思。改变特性的基本意义就是规则文字上改变。
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Re: 关于变体叠加问题的讨论
« 回帖 #8 于: 2017-11-30, 周四 19:20:33 »
随便找了个MARK的回复
这是别人问MARK关于2个蛮子变体的推荐狂暴力(其中1个调整了狂暴)是否影响叠加的问题
mark指出这个并没有扩表,只是建议,所以OK
问题1:如果扩表了,那么还OK吗?
问题2:如果把狂暴之力替换为奥能,那会怎么样呢?
还有一个就是,对于这类描述,重要的是理解设计师的意思,还是扣字眼呢?
问题3:你们觉得闷棍手可以上远程吗?字面可是没问题哦
然后反论
1 过去不代表现在
2 魔战是原帖里面提到的内容,和你关系不大
X 现在是谁在尝试于字缝里看出字来解释呢?
3 追求利益人人都做,否则请不要优化
没团,气炸

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Re: 关于变体叠加问题的讨论
« 回帖 #9 于: 2017-11-30, 周四 20:09:43 »
难道不是因为mark说:”啊誓言圣骑都扩了可知法术所以不能叠加。“所以魔战扩表扑街了么