【3.5】变形术会改变生命值么？

[Zero Line]

让我想起以前另外一个帖子也是说这个问题
那时候我才知道变形是可以影响HP上限的233
那时我才知道这么多年来我一直用错变形术

[古明地门番]

我喜欢没有冲突也要发明冲突的精神。（笑）

我也希望規則告訴我Yes或者No，可惜并沒有

这个应该这么想：
变形术基于变身术，而变身术确实描述过不改变HP
但是变形术与变身不同的是，变形术可能会改变受术者的体质，但是由于变形术涵盖了变身的效果，此时按照描述有两种理解：
1，虽然变形术改变了体质，但是由于变身术的效果不会改变生命值
2，虽然由于变身术的效果不会改变生命值，但是由于变形术改变了体质，所以体质调整的那部分生命值会有变化
然后根据RotG的解释，在这种情况下应该按2来判断。

[90%]

想顺便问个防具与变形的问题

RC对变形的叙述是身上的装备在变形后可以穿戴的话会适应体型的变化继续穿着，否则掉落在地上

劇透 -   :

CHANGE SHAPE
A creature that has this special quality can assume the appearance
of a specifi c creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid),
but retains most of its original physical qualities. Changing
shape results in the following changes to the creature.
• The creature retains the type and subtype of its natural
form. It gains the size of its assumed form.
• The creature loses the natural weapons and movement
modes of its natural form, as well as any extraordinary special
attacks of its natural form not derived from class levels.
• The creature gains the natural weapons, movement
modes, and extraordinary abilities and attacks of its
assumed form.
• The creature retains all other attacks and special qualities of
its natural form, except for breath weapons and gaze attacks.
• The creature retains the ability scores of its natural form.
• Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all
other game statistics of its natural form, including but
not necessarily limited to Hit Dice, hit points, skill
ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses.
• The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its
natural form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly
to cast spells with verbal components, and it must have
humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components.
• The creature is effectively camoufl aged as a creature of
its assumed form, and it gains a +10 bonus on Disguise
checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise.
• Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be
worn or carried in its assumed form instead falls to the
ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any
gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its
assumed form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-
shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed
for humanoid-shaped creatures, and vice versa.) Gear
returns to normal size if dropped.

但是FAQ里又提到装备不会自动适应新体型

劇透 -   :

What happens to the equipment worn and carried by a
character polymorphed* into another creature capable of
wearing and carrying the same gear? What if the new
creature’s size is different?

Unless stated otherwise, all spells in the polymorph chain
function as described in the alter self spell description, which
states that if the new form is capable of wearing or holding the
item, it remains worn or held; otherwise it melds into the new
form and becomes nonfunctional. A human polymorphed into
another Medium humanoid-shaped form (such as an elf,
grimlock, or bearded devil) can wear or hold all his gear, so it
remains in place.
However, this is one of those times when size definitely
matters, since your gear doesn’t automatically change size as a
result of polymorph. Assuming the new form has appropriate
body locations—for instance, a human polymorphed into a troll
or a pixie—most of your magic items (rings, cloaks, boots, and
other items of magic clothing or jewelry) still fit just fine
regardless of your new size (see “Size and Magic Items” on
page 213 of the DMG).
Nonmagical clothing and accoutrements that don’t fit the
new size meld into the character’s body when he is
polymorphed. (The Sage recommends that DMs err on the side
of leniency when determining what the new form can or can’t
wear.)
Similarly, armor (even magic armor) doesn’t resize to fit
wearers of different sizes. The human described above loses the
benefit of his +1 full plate armor as it melds into his body,
even though the new form is capable of wearing armor.
As long as your new form can hold weapons (that is, it has
hands or other similarly dexterous extremities), you hold on to
whatever weapons you had before the change. However, since
the weapons are no longer of a size appropriate to you, you take
a penalty on attack rolls with them as described on page 113 of
the PH. A human polymorphed into a troll can still hold his
Medium weapons (although they’re now one size category too
small for optimal use and thus he’ll suffer a –2 penalty on
attack rolls). On the plus side, he can now wield that Medium
greatsword with only one hand, meaning he could pick up a
shield or a second weapon to wield simultaneously.
If your barbarian is regularly polymorphed into a troll or
stone giant, you might want to consider carrying an extra Large
weapon for use in those situations.
*The question and answer uses “polymorph” to refer
specifically to spells that rely on the polymorph or alter self
spell to adjudicate their effect (including alter self, polymorph,
polymorph any object, and shapechange), psionic powers based
on the metamorphosis power (including metamorphosis and
greater metamorphosis), and any other effect based on either of
these lists.

也不知道要怎么查询这两个叙述孰先孰后，而且就算查的到也不清楚具体该怎么判
且整个3.5扩展翻遍也只有核心的wild有类似让装备在变形时持续生效的功能，但也只是支持荒野变型，完全没有对应变形术的附魔(或是我的阅读量不够?

[5eyangao]

规则叫不醒装睡的人，这个没办法。

“没有讲”，本身就是一条现有规则。

对于一个把心证当成真理的人，那确实是这么回事。

3E转3R中出现的问题不止一个，难道所有问题都是刻意的？
2004年勘误的是DMG，DMG的改动和变形术完全不冲突（因为法术本身根本没说HP变动与否），你觉得DMG勘误应该给PHB加括号？
2006年的“Polymorph Revisited”说“The polymorph spell itself hasn't changed at all”，确实没有任何资料更改了变形术原文。而且那篇通篇讲的是Alternate Form。
2006年的PHB2首先运用了变形子学派的概念，对于“Spells That Have Come Before”，上面特意举了Alter Self不改变属性作为例子。
2007年的万律只不过沿用了这个概念而已，你说他特意针对的是官网一篇文章是不是太想当然了。

你说心证有什么意义？一个行为可以有一万种合理解释。

官方放弃治疗没错，目前我们手头上最真实的就是DMG勘误和官网ROTG这两篇同样有效力但互相冲突的解释，为什么不能承认这个问题？我不比D&D设计师更懂规则，但设计师也是人，是人就可能犯错，有什么好奇怪的。

[5eyangao]

我喜欢没有冲突也要发明冲突的精神。（笑）

我也希望規則告訴我Yes或者No，可惜并沒有

这个应该这么想：
变形术基于变身术，而变身术确实描述过不改变HP
但是变形术与变身不同的是，变形术可能会改变受术者的体质，但是由于变形术涵盖了变身的效果，此时按照描述有两种理解：
1，虽然变形术改变了体质，但是由于变身术的效果不会改变生命值
2，虽然由于变身术的效果不会改变生命值，但是由于变形术改变了体质，所以体质调整的那部分生命值会有变化
然后根据RotG的解释，在这种情况下应该按2来判断。

没问题，两种理解都合理。但为什么有两种理解，就是因为解释互相冲突。如果Rotg基于任何原因可以优先于DMG勘误，那就根本不需要有争议了对不？

[子虚子]

我喜欢没有冲突也要发明冲突的精神。（笑）

我也希望規則告訴我Yes或者No，可惜并沒有

这个应该这么想：
变形术基于变身术，而变身术确实描述过不改变HP
但是变形术与变身不同的是，变形术可能会改变受术者的体质，但是由于变形术涵盖了变身的效果，此时按照描述有两种理解：
1，虽然变形术改变了体质，但是由于变身术的效果不会改变生命值
2，虽然由于变身术的效果不会改变生命值，但是由于变形术改变了体质，所以体质调整的那部分生命值会有变化
然后根据RotG的解释，在这种情况下应该按2来判断。

没问题，两种理解都合理。但为什么有两种理解，就是因为解释互相冲突。如果Rotg基于任何原因可以优先于DMG勘误，那就根本不需要有争议了对不？

我再重复一遍:我喜欢没有矛盾也要发明矛盾的精神。

我也喜欢把一切自己不喜欢的规则全都打为心证的精神哟。

那问题就很明确了:你不是来问判法的，你只不过是来求认同的。那你何必发帖子呢？

[子虚子]

规则叫不醒装睡的人，这个没办法。

“没有讲”，本身就是一条现有规则。

对于一个把心证当成真理的人，那确实是这么回事。

3E转3R中出现的问题不止一个，难道所有问题都是刻意的？
2004年勘误的是DMG，DMG的改动和变形术完全不冲突（因为法术本身根本没说HP变动与否），你觉得DMG勘误应该给PHB加括号？
2006年的“Polymorph Revisited”说“The polymorph spell itself hasn't changed at all”，确实没有任何资料更改了变形术原文。而且那篇通篇讲的是Alternate Form。
2006年的PHB2首先运用了变形子学派的概念，对于“Spells That Have Come Before”，上面特意举了Alter Self不改变属性作为例子。
2007年的万律只不过沿用了这个概念而已，你说他特意针对的是官网一篇文章是不是太想当然了。

你说心证有什么意义？一个行为可以有一万种合理解释。

官方放弃治疗没错，目前我们手头上最真实的就是DMG勘误和官网ROTG这两篇同样有效力但互相冲突的解释，为什么不能承认这个问题？我不比D&D设计师更懂规则，但设计师也是人，是人就可能犯错，有什么好奇怪的。

任何一个3版玩家都会告诉你，法术描述第一句那个“视同变身术”，就包括了变身术描述里那一句“不改变生命值”。

而“不改变生命值”和“不改变生命值（不论体质变化）”的区别在哪，官方已经告诉你了，那就是“与上个版本不同，体质变化会改变生命值”。

你为什么坚决认为规则文本的这一处变化就仅仅是官方傻逼了一次？你还说你没比官方更懂规则？

[ly0001]

想顺便问个防具与变形的问题

RC对变形的叙述是身上的装备在变形后可以穿戴的话会适应体型的变化继续穿着，否则掉落在地上

劇透 -   :

CHANGE SHAPE
A creature that has this special quality can assume the appearance
of a specifi c creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid),
but retains most of its original physical qualities. Changing
shape results in the following changes to the creature.
• The creature retains the type and subtype of its natural
form. It gains the size of its assumed form.
• The creature loses the natural weapons and movement
modes of its natural form, as well as any extraordinary special
attacks of its natural form not derived from class levels.
• The creature gains the natural weapons, movement
modes, and extraordinary abilities and attacks of its
assumed form.
• The creature retains all other attacks and special qualities of
its natural form, except for breath weapons and gaze attacks.
• The creature retains the ability scores of its natural form.
• Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all
other game statistics of its natural form, including but
not necessarily limited to Hit Dice, hit points, skill
ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses.
• The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its
natural form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly
to cast spells with verbal components, and it must have
humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components.
• The creature is effectively camoufl aged as a creature of
its assumed form, and it gains a +10 bonus on Disguise
checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise.
• Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be
worn or carried in its assumed form instead falls to the
ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any
gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its
assumed form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-
shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed
for humanoid-shaped creatures, and vice versa.) Gear
returns to normal size if dropped.

但是FAQ里又提到装备不会自动适应新体型

劇透 -   :

What happens to the equipment worn and carried by a
character polymorphed* into another creature capable of
wearing and carrying the same gear? What if the new
creature’s size is different?

Unless stated otherwise, all spells in the polymorph chain
function as described in the alter self spell description, which
states that if the new form is capable of wearing or holding the
item, it remains worn or held; otherwise it melds into the new
form and becomes nonfunctional. A human polymorphed into
another Medium humanoid-shaped form (such as an elf,
grimlock, or bearded devil) can wear or hold all his gear, so it
remains in place.
However, this is one of those times when size definitely
matters, since your gear doesn’t automatically change size as a
result of polymorph. Assuming the new form has appropriate
body locations—for instance, a human polymorphed into a troll
or a pixie—most of your magic items (rings, cloaks, boots, and
other items of magic clothing or jewelry) still fit just fine
regardless of your new size (see “Size and Magic Items” on
page 213 of the DMG).
Nonmagical clothing and accoutrements that don’t fit the
new size meld into the character’s body when he is
polymorphed. (The Sage recommends that DMs err on the side
of leniency when determining what the new form can or can’t
wear.)
Similarly, armor (even magic armor) doesn’t resize to fit
wearers of different sizes. The human described above loses the
benefit of his +1 full plate armor as it melds into his body,
even though the new form is capable of wearing armor.
As long as your new form can hold weapons (that is, it has
hands or other similarly dexterous extremities), you hold on to
whatever weapons you had before the change. However, since
the weapons are no longer of a size appropriate to you, you take
a penalty on attack rolls with them as described on page 113 of
the PH. A human polymorphed into a troll can still hold his
Medium weapons (although they’re now one size category too
small for optimal use and thus he’ll suffer a –2 penalty on
attack rolls). On the plus side, he can now wield that Medium
greatsword with only one hand, meaning he could pick up a
shield or a second weapon to wield simultaneously.
If your barbarian is regularly polymorphed into a troll or
stone giant, you might want to consider carrying an extra Large
weapon for use in those situations.
*The question and answer uses “polymorph” to refer
specifically to spells that rely on the polymorph or alter self
spell to adjudicate their effect (including alter self, polymorph,
polymorph any object, and shapechange), psionic powers based
on the metamorphosis power (including metamorphosis and
greater metamorphosis), and any other effect based on either of
these lists.

也不知道要怎么查询这两个叙述孰先孰后，而且就算查的到也不清楚具体该怎么判
且整个3.5扩展翻遍也只有核心的wild有类似让装备在变形时持续生效的功能，但也只是支持荒野变型，完全没有对应变形术的附魔(或是我的阅读量不够?

感觉没冲突啊。如果你中体型类人生物变另一种中体型类人生物，变形后身体本身能穿上你原本的装备的话，变形后就能自动装备不会爆。如果你变成其他不同体型或者变成动物之类不能穿那些装备的，变身后装备就会爆出来不会跟着你的体型变化

[90%]

感觉没冲突啊。如果你中体型类人生物变另一种中体型类人生物，变形后身体本身能穿上你原本的装备的话，变形后就能自动装备不会爆。如果你变成其他不同体型或者变成动物之类不能穿那些装备的，变身后装备就会爆出来不会跟着你的体型变化

RC的說到的 any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its assumed form changes size to match the new size. 與FAQ的 Similarly, armor (even magic armor) doesn’t resize to fit wearers of different sizes. 不就直接冲突了吗

主要是我的DM在他的团里引用了FAQ的解释让所有的穿甲战士很难去使用变形资源，可是這(RC)明明有個完全相反的解釋

[5eyangao]

我也喜欢把一切自己不喜欢的规则全都打为心证的精神哟。

“没有讲”，本身就是一条现有规则。

我也很喜欢你把自己的“猜想”当作“规则”的精神哟，这可以算我们互相欣赏吧？。

你为什么坚决认为规则文本的这一处变化就仅仅是官方傻逼了一次？你还说你没比官方更懂规则？

因为官方的DMG勘误做了完全相反的解释啊，就是这么简单？比起指责我，你不如去指责DMG勘误的作者是不是比Skip William更懂规则好了。

我看到一种论调是DMG的“retain their original hit points”的“hit points”是基于HD的hit points。所以变身后目标HD不变，但可以根据体质改变获得额外生命值，算是一个折中的理解吧。