作者 主题: 关于黑暗导致目盲的纯规则探讨  (阅读 405 次)

副标题: 本文仅接受依据规则书文本和FAQ的讨论,不接受“诉诸群众”之逻辑谬误,不接受依据“常识”所作之推断。纯规则探讨,见谅。

离线 Julien

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关于黑暗导致目盲的纯规则探讨
« 于: 2020-05-04, 周一 09:55:09 »
        黑暗导致目盲出自1.9-规则-CRB-环境规则-黑暗。原文第一段为
        拥有黑暗视觉的角色或生物能在完全无光的情况下也能看清周围事物,但是只有通常视觉 (或者昏暗视觉) 的角色会因为失去光源而完全看不见东西。火把或是提灯会被突如其来的洞穴风吹灭,魔法光源也有可能被驱散或被反制,而一些魔法陷阱也能造成难以穿透的黑暗。
       
        对应的原文在CRB pg.442,原文为
        Darkvision allows many characters and monsters to see perfectly well without any light at all, but characters with normal or low-light vision can be rendered completely blind by putting out the lights. Torches or lanterns can be blown out by sudden gusts of subterranean wind, magical light sources can be dispelled or countered, or magical traps might create fields of impenetrable darkness.

        个人对putting out the lights存疑。putting out the lights是 视为目盲 的条件,但这个动作似乎翻译为“移除光源”——即突然失去光源更好一些。后文所举的三个例子,也同样是对应 突然失去光源 的情况。  那么,在夜晚的黑暗环境中(长期处于黑暗),正常视觉和昏暗视觉角色 是否不满足putting out the lights的条件,而不当被视为目盲呢?刍荛之议,愿就正于方家。



问题已解决,4楼说的非常清楚,感谢。
« 上次编辑: 2020-05-04, 周一 17:17:08 由 Julien »

线上 希尔

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Re: 关于黑暗导致目盲的纯规则探讨
« 回帖 #1 于: 2020-05-04, 周一 09:59:46 »
想多了,不应该这样翻译。
(单纯语文问题
« 上次编辑: 2020-05-04, 周一 10:12:13 由 希尔 »
见证了丢人的币+1

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Re: 关于黑暗导致目盲的纯规则探讨
« 回帖 #2 于: 2020-05-04, 周一 10:04:12 »
        从逻辑上说,以三个例子未提到长期处于黑暗的状态,而反推putting out the lights限定指 突然失去光源,固然是不够严谨的。(归纳法总是不够严谨……)当然,反过来说认为长期处于黑暗也视为目盲更无依据。此处存疑,希望有朋友能找出规则书或FAQ明文。

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Re: 关于黑暗导致目盲的纯规则探讨
« 回帖 #3 于: 2020-05-04, 周一 10:11:15 »
处于黑暗自然也是“移除光源”的状态啊。
我的分区冰原之下
COC7规则测试除了纯规则,还包括更实操的题目,欢迎提供意见,尤其是参考答案方面
各职业的挑战与两种生成适用于COC的随机遭遇表

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Re: 關於黑暗導致目盲的純規則探討
« 回帖 #4 于: 2020-05-04, 周一 10:34:06 »
Source PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 172

Dwarves and half-orcs have darkvision, but the other races presented in Chapter 2 need light to see by. See Table 7–10 for the radius that a light source illuminates and how long it lasts. The increased entry indicates an area outside the lit radius in which the light level is increased by one step (from darkness to dim light, for example).

In an area of bright light, all characters can see clearly. Some creatures, such as those with light sensitivity and light blindness, take penalties while in areas of bright light. A creature can’t use Stealth in an area of bright light unless it is invisible or has cover. Areas of bright light include outside in direct sunshine and inside the area of a daylight spell.

Normal light functions just like bright light, but characters with light sensitivity and light blindness do not take penalties. Areas of normal light include underneath a forest canopy during the day, within 20 feet of a torch, and inside the area of a light spell.

In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness. A creature within an area of dim light can make a Stealth check to conceal itself. Areas of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the sky, bright starlight, and the area between 20 and 40 feet from a torch.

In areas of darkness, creatures without darkvision are effectively blinded. In addition to the obvious effects, a blinded creature has a 50% miss chance in combat (all opponents have total concealment), loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and takes a –4 penalty on Perception checks that rely on sight and most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. Areas of darkness include an unlit dungeon chamber, most caverns, and outside on a cloudy, moonless night.

Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters.

Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can’t hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover.


« 上次编辑: 2020-05-04, 周一 10:35:41 由 TougouTuyosi »
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离线 greenskin

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Re: 关于黑暗导致目盲的纯规则探讨
« 回帖 #5 于: 2020-05-04, 周一 10:40:24 »
规则上合乎常识的部分,设计师一般是不会浪费笔墨说明的。
然后把因为xxx当成充要条件的逻辑也很迷,环境规则里面黑暗的部分接下来就有说:"在下述情况中所提到的“失明”是指无法看穿周围的黑暗。"
除非你的常识是,长期处在黑暗中的人可以看穿黑暗。

离线 Mounrou

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Re: 关于黑暗导致目盲的纯规则探讨
« 回帖 #6 于: 2020-05-04, 周一 10:46:14 »
You think too much... =3=

In these cases there are 2 usual possibilities:

1) It's like someone trying to describe "turn on the light" as physically spinning on top of a light... You might want to go to a place called "school" to learn a subject called "English"... But then with the demonstration of your English literacy above you probably don't understand what I am talking about at all.

2) Either that, or like so many people before, you're trying to twist an answer into whatever you want it to be regardless of sense or intention... In that case, why even ask others? You don't intent to take "no" for an answer in this case anyhow, wasting other people's times like this won't net you any benefits. v=3=v

Pick the one that suits you the most.
« 上次编辑: 2020-05-04, 周一 11:26:07 由 Mounrou »
我用不來中文輸入法,所以我只能手寫中文字
在電腦上打中文字相比起英文而言大概要花我10倍的時間,而且會累死我。 >3< (Which has no point when people just skip it anyhow.)
所以,除非這事情非常非常重要,否則我一般只會用英文。
如果你看不懂英文,非常重要時我會盡可能嘗試去打中文。 -w-b
( Except Grammar Nazis cause, you know, THEY'RE RELATED TO NAZIS!!! And pretty impolite to boot too. =_+\ )

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Re: 关于黑暗导致目盲的纯规则探讨
« 回帖 #7 于: 2020-05-04, 周一 12:19:11 »
难道还存在不移除光源的黑暗情况吗 :em021,你所说的“长期”有多久呢
海豹真是太可爱啦

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Re: 关于黑暗导致目盲的纯规则探讨
« 回帖 #8 于: 2020-05-04, 周一 14:19:52 »
是因为现在夜晚的光污染过于严重没接触过纯粹的黑暗吗?
二十年前我住在农村外婆家的时候晚上一旦关灯就是字面意义上的伸手不见五指,呆的时间再长也没用。找个没装灯的地下室进去体验一下也不错。
如无必要,尽量以“灰鹰”代替“三版”,避免刺激某些人的敏感神经。