法术升阶 + 魔法裔

[Julien]

        听说很多人都觉得先法术升阶1环，再用魔法裔降1环这个操作是非法的。不过我没太搞明白该“非法”是如何论证的。

        论坛上已经有很多讨论，反方论证路径大概有以下几条：
（1）据APG的FAQ，魔法裔不能把法术降低到原本的环级之下，比如2环火球术这种。

        但火球术升阶一环，魔法裔降低一环，仍然是等于其原本环级（3环），并不低于 未经调整的原本环级。（the unmodified spell's original level）

劇透 -   :

魔法裔 (背景特性)：我可以用这个背景特性将某个法术的环数降低到比正常该法术环低吗？
不行。比如你不能将火球术给弄成2环.
Magical Lineage (trait): Can I use this trait to adjust a spell's effective level below the unmodified spell's original level?
No. For example, it won't allow you to alter a wizard's fireball into 2nd-level spell.

（2）法术升阶并未“提高”法术环级，而是“设定”了新的法术环级。其论据是法术升阶的描述与一般超魔专长不同。一般超魔专长都会说“使用比其真实环级高X环的法术位”（uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level）；而法术升阶说的是“拥有更高的法术环级。……法术升阶能确实提高法术的有效等级……”（A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies.）
        而魔法裔只能适用于提高了法术环级的超魔专长。（魔法裔只能apply metamagic feats to this spell that add at least 1 level to the spell）

        法术升阶的描述确实是有所不同，不过以此就说它是“设定”新法术环级，而非“提高”法术环级，还是有点牵强,有一点文字游戏的感觉。如果硬要抠，魔法裔的要求是“add at least 1 level to the spell”，即（超魔专长）给原法术增加一级，但我们都能理解，这里实际是指的提高
一环法术位；而法术升阶不只提高了法术位，还提高了法术有效等级。

劇透 -   :

魔法裔：你的双亲之一是为极具天赋的施法者，他/她不但擅长超魔强化，更能够自行创造若干新法术或奇物——而你恰好通过遗传从中获得了一些恩惠。在你选择此背景特性时，指定一个法术。当你超魔施展该法术时，其最终占用的法术环位视为比正常状况降低1级。
Magical Lineage: One of your parents was a gifted spellcaster who not only used metamagic often, but also developed many magical items and perhaps even a new spell or two—and you have inherited a fragment of this greatness. Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell’s final adjusted level.

法术升阶：本专长可以使法术表现得比原本等级高（最高不可超过9环）。与其他超魔专长不同的是，法术升阶可以确实提升法术的有效等级。法术效果中所有与法术等级有关的变量（如法术豁免检定DC或穿透『次级法术无效结界』法术的能力）都以升阶後的法术等级计算。升阶法术准备和释放的难度都以提升後的法术等级计算。
Heighten Spell：A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

（3）CRB的FAQ总有“你不能没有代价地将法术升阶：任何法术有效环位的提升，都会在添加其他超魔专长、带来进一步的环位提升前追溯确认。”(you can't apply Heighten Spell to a spell at no cost: any increase to the effective spell level of the spell must be tracked and paid for by using a higher-level spell slot, above and beyond any other spell level increases from the other metamagic feats.)

        有两个问题。其一，从冒号后面的内容来看，这里的“没有任何代价”特指的是当和其他超魔专长配合时（后面的例证也证明了这一点），而魔法裔是一个背景特性。其二，即使不论话题不同，选择魔法裔花费了一个背景，也不可说毫无代价。

劇透 -   :

法术升阶：在使用高环法术位施展低环法术时，「法术升阶」如何与其他超魔专长共同作用？
　　「法术升阶」的文字描述不佳，容易引起困惑。它允许你以较高环法术位来准备或施展法术，并将其有效环位视为比原版的法术更高。与总是将法术环位+1的「法术静发」等专长不同，「法术升阶」允许你在+1到+9的范围内自行决定提高的环位数。这才是本专长的恰当描述，由於核心规则直接沿用了DND3R的文本，它并未详细解释：(1) 以较高环法术位准备法术的一般性规则；(2) 与其他超魔专长合用时的情况。
　　对 (1) 来说，拥有「法术升阶」专长并不意味着你以较高环位施展的法术能够自动获得升阶效果；你仍然需要决定是正常地、还是升阶来准备或施展此法术。若你不是自发施法者 (如牧师或法师)，而你想用较高环的法术位来准备一个较低环的法术，那你没有理由拒绝为其升阶 (并无额外时间消耗或任何其他代价)。若你是自发施法者，升阶施法需要增加施法时间，正如你使用其他超魔专长一样。因此，你需要在「以较高环法术位正常施法」和「增加施法时间，将法术升阶为实际使用的法术环位」之间权衡利弊。
　　举例而言，一位10级的术士能以3环、4环或5环的法术位来正常地施展『火球术』，施法时间为1个标准动作，法术视为3环，豁免DC为 (13 + 魅力修正)。如果她拥有「法术升阶」专长并想以4环或5环的法术位来将法术升阶，施法时间将为1个整轮动作，但将被视为4环或5环法术，豁免DC也相应提升为 (14 + 魅力修正) 或 (15 + 魅力修正)。
　　对 (2) 来说，你不能没有代价地将法术升阶：任何法术有效环位的提升，都会在添加其他超魔专长、带来进一步的环位提升前追溯确认。【译注：这里和下例的意思就是莫耍无赖：我有升阶专长，所以我用7环丢的瞬发火球术DC天然就是17+Int。】
　　范例：一位15级的法师拥有「法术瞬发」专长。若他准备1个『瞬发火球术』，这需要1个7环法术位 (火球术3环 + 瞬发提升4环)。因为法术实际上仍然是一个3环法术，所以豁免DC仍为 (13 + 智力修正)，尽管它占用的法术位高达7环。若他同时拥有「法术升阶」专长，法术并不会自动升阶；它仍然视为3环法术，DC也视同3环法术。如果他想用「法术升阶」专长来提升『火球术』的有效环位，他需要用比7环更高的法术位来调整法术。将『火球术』的有效环位+1 (从3环到4环) 将使法术环位＋1 (在本例中即为8环法术位，取代7环)；将『火球术』的有效环位+2 (从3环到5环) 将使法术环位＋2  (在本例中即为9环法术位)。
　　另一种处理 (2) 的方法是先使用「法术升阶」专长，再添加其他超魔专长。仍沿用上例，你可以先将『火球术』升至4环，再以8环法术位瞬发之；或者先将『火球术』升至5环，再以9环法术位瞬发之。
　　(「法术升阶」是一个较弱的超魔专长，在与其他超魔专长并用时实效有限。)

Heighten Spell: How does this spell combine with other metamagic feats and using higher-level slots for lower-level spells?

Heighten Spell is worded poorly and can be confusing. It lets you use a higher-level spell slot for a spell, treating the spell as if it were naturally a higher level spell than the standard version. Unlike Still Spell, which always adds +1 to the level of the spell slot used for a spell, Heighten Spell lets you decide increase a spell's level anywhere from +1 to +9, using a spell slot that is that many spell levels higher than the normal spell.
The language implies that the heightened spell uses whatever spell level is used to prepare or cast it, but the rules text was inherited from 3.5 and doesn't take into account (1) the normal rule allowing you to prepare a spell with a higher-level spell slot, and (2) combining it with other metamagic feats.

For (1), having Heighten Spell doesn't mean any spell you cast with a higher-level slot is automatically heightened; you still have to make the decision to prepare or cast the spell an normal or heightened.
If you are a non-spontaneous caster (such as a cleric or wizard) who wants to prepare a lower-level spell in a higher-level slot, there is no reason not to use Heighten Spell on that spell (it doesn't cost you any extra time or any other game "currency").
If you are a spontaneous caster, heightening a spell when using a higher-level spell slot still increases the casting time, just like any other use of metamagic, so you have to weigh the benefits of either
• casting it normally using the higher-level slot
vs.
• increasing the casting time to cast it as a heightened spell and treat the spell as the level of the spell slot you're using.
Example A 10th-level sorcerer could cast fireball using a 3rd-, 4th-, or 5th-level spell slot, it would only be a standard action casting time, would count as a 3rd-level spell, and have a DC of 13 + Charisma bonus. If she had Heighten Spell and wanted to heighten it using a 4th- or 5th-level spell slot, it would have a full-round action casting time, but would count as a 4th- or 5th-level spell and have a DC of 14 + Cha bonus (for a 4th-level spell) or 15 + Cha bonus (for a 5th-level slot).

For (2), you can't apply Heighten Spell to a spell at no cost: any increase to the effective spell level of the spell must be tracked and paid for by using a higher-level spell slot, above and beyond any other spell level increases from the other metamagic feats.
Example: A 15th-level wizard has Quicken Spell. If he prepares a quickened fireball, that requires a 7th-level spell slot (fireball 3rd level + quicken 4 levels). The spell's DC is still 13 + his Int bonus because it's still just a 3rd-level spell, even though it's in a 7th-level spell slot. If he also has Heighten Spell, the spell is not automatically heightened; it still counts as a 3rd-level spell and has the DC of a 3rd-level spell. If he wants to increase the quickened fireball's effective level with Heighten Spell, he needs to use an even higher level spell slot than the adjusted spell level from the Quicken Spell feat. Increasing the fireball's effective spell level by +1 (from 3rd to 4th) requires using a spell slot +1 level higher (in this case, an 8th-level spell slot instead of a 7th-level slot); increasing the fireball's effective spell level by +2 (from 3rd to 5th) requires using a spell slot +2 levels higher (in this case, a 9th-level spell slot instead of a 7th-level slot).

Another way to look at (2) it is to add Heighten Spell first, then other metamagic feats. Continuing the above example, you'd first heighten the fireball to a 4th-level spell, then quicken it, which requires an 8th-level spell slot (fireball 4th level + quicken 4 levels). Or first heighten the fireball to a 5th-level spell, then quicken it, which requires a 9th-level spell slot (fireball 5th level + quicken 4 levels).

(Heighten Spell is a weak metamagic feat and has limited utility when combined with other metamagic feats.)

        我不知道还有没有其他论证这个问题的方法。至少从目前的证据来看，我感觉ban掉法术升阶+魔法裔还是证据不足的。顺便附上论坛帖地址。

[隐匿的无名者]

举一个简单的例子：我用法术升阶把火球术升成4环，又因我有魔法裔的背景特性，这个升阶火球就降到了3环，那么这个升阶火球在效果处理上是按照4环还是3环来呢？法术位是用3环还是4环？难道你要把这个升阶火球当作用着3环法术位的4环法术？
BAN掉某些东西不是因为某些东西不会符合RAW或RAI，仅仅是某些东西组合起来会反常识或者难以判断效果

[elmit]

PF有两个超魔减环背景：魔法裔和剪影魔猎
魔法裔：Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell that add at least 1 level to the spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell’s final adjusted level.
剪影魔猎：Select a spell of 3rd level or below. When you use this spell with a metamagic feat, it uses up a spell slot one level lower than it normally would.

个人理解是法术升阶描述和FAQ的补充文字里，都没有改变这个专长是个提升法术占用环位（同时也提升法术实际环位）的超魔专长这个本质（相比较之下其他的超魔法术皆如同下面P子自己说的，只提升占用环位而不提升实际环位）
法术占用环位和法术实际环位应该是两个东西，因为P子在超魔专长描述中提过这么一句：Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up.

于是魔法裔+法术升阶=魔法裔直接调整了法术升阶的所有效果（treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell’s final adjusted level），结果是将法术调整为原本升阶环位-1环位的法术
而剪影魔猎+法术升阶=剪影魔猎调整了法术的占用环位（uses up a spell slot one level lower），结果是将法术调整为使用升阶环位-1的法术位施放的升阶环位法术
举例说明，7级魔法裔（火球）法师施放升阶4环火球术，结果是魔法裔将升阶的所有环位调整-1，变为绕了一圈施放了一个和原法术一模一样的3环火球术
而7级剪影魔猎（火球）法师施放升阶4环火球术，结果是剪影魔猎只将占用环位调整-1，用3环的法术位施放等同于4环法术效果的火球术

以及用这个理论反对一下那个P子论坛贴说的用升阶提前进秘术。升阶实际上确实提升了法术实际环位，也就改变了这个法术所要求的施法者等级。如果本身CL1的牧师不足以施放升阶调整后的2环神术，那剪影魔猎减少的只是占用环位，牧师实际仍然无法施放升阶2环光亮术。

当然P子从来没提过“占用环位”和“实际环位”这种词，剪影魔猎和魔法裔的作者大概也没考虑这么多，上面这些其实都是我自己村规瞎编的，看看图个乐就行

刚才讨论了一下结果又出现了“升阶到4环的火球是否还符合剪影魔猎的‘3环以下法术’这个前置条件”这种奇妙的问题，不过和帖子主题无关就先放置着了

[greenskin]

没这么复杂吧。
超魔法术本身的定义是：
随着一位施法者的魔法知识渐长，他学到了以稍微不同的范式来施展法术的法门。拜超魔专长所赐，尽管以此种方式来准备并施展法术的难度高于通常，但至少是可能的。被一个超魔专长调整后的法术会占用高于正常环位的法术位。这并不会改变法术等级，因此豁免DC也不会随之提升。超魔专长不影响类法术能力。

即超魔法术会提高准备法术的难度，需要占用高于正常环位的法术位。

而升阶超魔的效果是升阶法术准备和释放的难度都以提升后的法术等级计算，意思很明确，这个超魔本身效果并不是说通过以提高准备难度为代价提高法术实际环级，而是让法术的实际环级如同其准备所用法术位的环级。
从这个角度来想的话，升级法术本身不会额外增加法术占用环级，而是因为法术实际环级提高了按照规则不得不占用更高环级的法术位，升阶超魔就是个+0超魔。

[Julien]

        2楼elmit的逻辑挺严密的（我看了3遍才全看明白XD）。

        后续问题：关于提前进阶秘术师，按照你的逻辑，仅仅是因为CL不够。那补一个探寻者（lore seeker）之类的背景，是不是就可以在第5级进阶秘术师了？（法师2/牧师2，法术升阶光亮术（或处于任意神、奥双表的0环或1环）到2环，剪影魔猎降到1环，再用探寻者补1 CL） 这貌似挡不住了啊。


        另外补证一下你的观点，规则和FAQ中是有用实际等级（actual level）、占用环位（use...spell slot）、有效等级（effective level）这三个词的。后两个概念都很清楚，但真实等级确实比较模糊。 我总结了一下，CRB里只有超魔熟稔和超魔专长使用了“actual level”，另APG的魔法裔里也使用了这个词。
超魔熟稔（法师通用学派8级能力）

劇透 -   :

超魔熟稔（Metamagic Mastery, Su）：在8级，你能够添加任何一项你所知的超魔专长到你即将施展的法术上。不需要改变法术等级或者施法时间。你能在8级时使用此能力每天一次，之後每2级增加1次（20级时每天7次）。每当你将此能力用於一项将法术位额外消耗超过1阶的超魔专长时。你必须为超过的每一阶法术消耗一次使用次数。即使此能力不增加实际法术等级，你也不能用此能力去施展一个法术等级被修改到超过你能施放最高法术等级的法术。

Metamagic Mastery (Su): At 8th level, you can apply any one metamagic feat that you know to a spell you are about to cast. This does not alter the level of the spell or the casting time. You can use this ability once per day at 8th level and one additional time per day for every two wizard levels you possess beyond 8th. Any time you use this ability to apply a metamagic feat that increases the spell level by more than 1, you must use an additional daily usage for each level above 1 that the feat adds to the spell. Even though this ability does not modify the spell’s actual level, you cannot use this ability to cast a spell whose modified spell level would be above the level of the highest-level spell that you are capable of casting.

        这里的“actual level”似乎是兼“有效等级”和“占用环位”而言，尤其是“占用环位”，因为主句说的就是占用环位问题。

法术强效

劇透 -   :

法术强效：搭配此专长时，法术效果中的所有可变量值皆增加一半。但本专长不影响豁免检定与对抗检定，对没有变量的法术也无影响。强效的法术须占用高於原本2个环位的法术位。

Empower Spell (Metamagic): All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half, including bonuses to those dice rolls.Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level.

        这里的“actual level”指的就是法术“占用环位”。原文最后一句是“使用比法术实际等级高2级的法术位”。其他的超魔专长（法术升阶除外）的最后一句都和法术强效类似。

魔法裔

劇透 -   :

魔法裔（Magical Lineage）【APG】：你的双亲之一是为极具天赋的施法者，他/她不但擅长超魔强化，更能够自行创造若干新法术或奇物——而你恰好通过遗传从中获得了一些恩惠。在你选择此背景特性时，指定一个法术。当你超魔施展该法术时，其最终占用的法术环位视为比正常状况降低1级。

Magical Lineage：One of your parents was a gifted spellcaster who not only used metamagic often, but also developed many magical items and perhaps even a new spell or two—and you have inherited a fragment of this greatness. Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell that add at least 1 level to the spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell’s final adjusted level.

        这里的“actual level”也是指的“占用环位”。原文末句为“在决定调整后的最终等级时，视其实际等级降低1级”。

        综上，如果规则和FAQ内部自洽的话，法术的“实际等级”指的就是法术“占用环位”。（当然不能反过来推导，比如超魔专长提高“占用环位”就不一定会提高法术“实际等级”）
        法术升阶第一句就说"被升阶的法术拥有更高的等级"（A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level).）第二句开始说法术升阶提高了“有效等级”，以致于过去我都把第一句也理解成了讲“有效等级”。但综观全文之后，好像第一句直接理解成法术“实际等级”就可以。按照这种逻辑，升阶后的法术确实能满足秘术师的前置条件。

法术升阶原文

劇透 -   :

Heighten Spell: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.